I’m coming to the end of my time at the Winchester Writers’ Conference, of which more anon. But can I run something quickly by my fellow bloggers, whether they be readers or writers.
At the conference you have the opportunity to pitch your offerings to a variety of agents, editors, publishers etc. I have about 22,000 words so far on a somewhat grim story of a young Nepalese woman captured and forced into the sex trade in Kolkata. I have taken on the challenge of writing in the first person, i.e.as the young woman. I am using the excellent Sue Ghosh as my editor in this to hopefully save me from blundering too badly as I proceed.
Now, the first lady I met, a consultant editor, was in no doubt. This didn’t work. She could absolutely tell that it was a man writing. There was therefore no credibility.
The next two were not so firm, but maybe they were just less interested. But the fourth, a (younger) commissioning editor said she disagreed. She thought that it was fine. There were other aspects that she thought needed considerable improvement, but not that. She, like I, felt that the way I had approached it brought more immediacy and poignancy to the story.
So a simple question. Can you guys generally tell if a piece of writing is by a man or a woman? And yes I know that you would probably prefer to see a sample, but generally speaking.
Did you know that Memoirs of a Geisha was written by a man?
When I read Memoirs of a Geisha, I had no idea that it was written by a man. After declaring it one of the best books I’ve ever read, I saw the name on the cover and just said ‘wow’. And thank you for the mention 🙂
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Thank you Sue, and I’ll be in touch shortly.
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What an interesting question. Personally, Memoirs of a Geisha and Clara Callan are at the top of my list for excellent books written from a woman’s perspective and voice, yet written by men. They’re brilliant. I was dumbfounded in each case when I realized that the authors were male. Based on the characterizations in your books (the 3 I’ve read), I’d say you have a good shot at being added to my list!
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Thank you Jane – crikey you’re a glutton for punishment reading all three 🙂 I had to Google Clara Callan but indeed it’s a very successful example of what can be done. Your encourage appreciated as always Jane.
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I think generally you can. It comes as a huge surprise sometimes when you realise that what you’ve just read has been written by the opposite gender – but it doesn’t happen very often. Before you Go to Sleep – a book I’ve read recently is told in the first person narrative as a woman yet it’s written by a man and it is obvious that it is – but why, it’s difficult to pinpoint. I no longer have a copy of the book to refresh my memory of it – I know there was just something that didn’t ring true about the character.
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Thank you Jenny. Wow that book has mixed reviews hasn’t it? I read through some of the 1-stars and certainly, in a couple of cases anyway, the reviewer says that it’s obvious that the writer is a man. The others don’t say, but maybe it was inconsequential to the (supposedly) bad writing. I appreciate your viewpoint and will need to decide whether or not to bravely battle on.
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Battle bravely on, I’d say. If the story and plot are good, then the characterisation can be tweaked if needs be!
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For me, the worst example of chick/dude voice was “Water for Elephants” by Sara Gruen. In my humble opinion, she didn’t pull off her main character Jacob at all. I found myself wondering why Jacob was trying to get romantically involved with Marlene, because he sounded…uh…oh yes, “effeminate” was the adjective I used in my Goodreads review. The chemistry just wasn’t there and I was marginally irritated throughout the story.
Writing as first person in the opposite sex is tricky, tricky business. I applaud you Roy for going forward with it, and for the story itself, which sounds amazing. I think you’ll be great.
If you want some honest opinions from the blogosphere, you can always bite the bullet and let us see that sample. : )
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Honest feedback Britt? I want people to say ‘It’s wonderful darling, don’t change a word!’ I might actually take you upon the offer knowing that you’ll be constructively critical. I was set on a re-write until the last expert’s comments, now I’ll test whether or not it’s going to work. My gut instinct is to fly with it but…
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Ha! You know you’ll get a lot of those “It’s wonderful darling, don’t change a word!” as well. I’m always here to offer constructive criticism when asked. But, I am a firm believer in gut instinct.
You’re a fine writer. Sounds like you should go for it.
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Aw shucks. That sample coming your way at some stage. Maybe you’ll change your mind.
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Roy, this is an interesting question you pose – one that I find rather difficult to answer. There are a lot of factors that go into what I anticipate the narration of a book will sound like: the cover, the genre, the sex of the author, the sex of the main character, etc.
In a nutshell, though, yes, I have read books before by male authors writing female characters, both first person and third person. Sometimes I can tell very obviously; there’s just something too male (or otherwise just not female) about it. One example of this off the top of my head is a YA title I read for a book club called Tomorrow When the War Began. Meanwhile, the portion of Memoirs of a Geisha I read was fine to me.
When it bothers me, it’s often a case of the author having written something that women don’t actually do or say but that social stereotypically says that they do. Other times, it’s much more subtle: I am a woman, I associate primarily with woman; I just know what female “energy” (for lack of a better term) feels and sounds like.
Like I said – difficult.
You’ve definitely piqued my curiosity now. I want to read a bit of your work. If you want to email me a little bit, I could give you my opinion, for what it’s worth.
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Thank you Janna. The example the first (and very experienced) editor gave was how a woman will observe another’s dress. It will be the colour, style, cut, material etc. A man (allegedly) will first notice the amount of flesh to be seen at the neckline and hemline. That may or may not be correct but I don’t think he would write in that way. I’m sure I haven’t done that with female characters before.
I believe I will take you up on your kind offer Janna, before I bash on with the project but thank you for your observations so far.
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It sounds like this editor is really caught up with gender stereotypes that might not hold true for all men or all women. I’m female, and I don’t notice what other women are wearing. Did this editor get to see your work without your name attached to it? I wonder whether she’d be able to pick out the gender of the author if the name on the the cover page were gender neutral.
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Hello AMB. She’s pretty experienced and well-known in the trade so I didn’t doubt what she was saying. However I am now wondering if she wasn’t generalising a bit rather than considering my MS. Had it not been for my very last appointment I would have taken her advice on board and not even raised the question with my blogging friends. I’m pleased I did now.
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For me, if a piece of writing is well written, I can’t tell whether the author is male or female. I’ve read several books in the romance genre that were written by men and I would have sworn a female wrote it. Interesting, I didn’t know Memoirs of a Geisha was written by a male. I’ll have to add that to my TBR list. Have you read it? If so, could you tell it was written by a male?
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Thank you Jill * breathes a sigh of relief*. No I’ve not read Memoirs of a Geisha but apparently it’s not obvious to the general reader – it may be to the experienced editor of course. One woman at the conference said that she felt cheated when she found out at the end 🙂
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It’s rarely made a difference to me what sex the author was when reading a book, regardless of the main character’s gender. The most important thing is that the book is well written- when that is accomplished, the rest often falls in line.
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Thank you Letizia. I know that you do a whole lot of reading and I appreciate your input. I believe that, as a reader, I’ve never worried about the matter either!
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I usually can’t tell, Roy. The conference sounds really interesting, I hope you write more about your experience there 😉
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Good, thank you Dianne. I guess if a bloke starts blathering nonsense on what are essentially female areas of concern and interest then the reader will lose faith quickly. Hopefully my editor will put a stop to any blathering. And yes, more on a really interesting weekend to come.
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Roy, I can honestly say that I seldom know the sex of an author and have often been amazed when I discover the ‘real truth.’ I think bogging is a real example of this, given that so many bloggers us ‘pen-names’ or whatever they might be called in Bloggerland. For me what matters is quality of content, not the author.
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Though the quality might suffer if a man is seen to lack the ability to speak with a woman’s voice? Or vice versa. That’s the danger I think. The writer has got to ‘become’ the character of the first person and I wonder to what extent that is possible in this situation. Thank you for your input Jean.
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I think you need to follow your instincts, I don’t think it is impossible but I do believe that it will be harder, given the subject you have chosen to write. I don’t typically look for male or female tone as a reader.
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Thank you Lisa. It is certainly a challenge but one that I set for myself. The easy road would be to switch to the third person for the young woman and first person for the Jersey banker who is disturbed by his organisation’s role in the money flows that facilitate the human trafficking trade. That’s a decision I’ll need to make.
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By guys, do you mean girls too? Or even women? Assuming so, I don`t go into a book wondering if the voice is authentic, unlike an editor, and so I don`t notice unless is obviously jars. No, I hadn`t known “Geisha“ was written by a man either. And I liked how you really understood Tess in your own book.
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Yes, it’s like the Irish collective term ‘lads’ which includes anyone within earshot 🙂 I think you’re correct that, if it’s done well, it ought not to matter. Some people will dislike this story anyway, whichever way it’s written. Maybe I’ll go for broke 🙂 Yes, I’m very fond of Tess and hopefully I’ll feel the same about Chameli.
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Really, I expect it`s down to how well you know the women in your life. Even though I`m surrounded by the males of the species far more than women, I still don`t think I`d `get` men enough ever to write from their perspective. But then, I don`t even have the imagination for fiction so I guess that quality-imagination-is key too.
Anyway, feck the critics! Keep writing! You`re damned good at it!
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You’re too kind RH but I really appreciate your support.
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Sometimes I can’t tell the difference at all. It depends on the character and their perceived masculine/feminine traits. Often if a woman’s been through hardship/abuse she might adopt a kind of “hardness”, and I guess that might be perceived as “masculine”. It’s a good idea to work with a female editor and get a female perspective on your writing though. I know it helped me getting a male perspective for my writing – and I usually write in third person!
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Also I love the painting you’ve illustrated your post with – who painted it?
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I simply picked it off Google Images, but now I see it’s by Henry Clive. I’m immediately going to correct my post and give him a credit.
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Thanks Roy. I might get a print 🙂
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Thanks Laura. Yes I need Sue to tell me if I start sounding man-ish! Personally I don’t think I can – Chameli is hardly going to slip off to the pub or start talking about football 🙂 And I’m not going to delve too much into the female psyche because I haven’t that depth of knowledge. We’ll see, and thank you for your observations.
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I admit that usually I can tell – and that is when I have read something before looking at the author. But not always.
For me, Iain Banks manages it in Canal Dreams, and from a slightly different perspective I have read positive reviews of Richard Morgan’s gay male character in his fantasy series.
Otherwise can’t think of examples, I’m afraid
The only way to tell is to ‘fess up some content I expect – all your friends here will be constructive I am sure 🙂 (Not that i would be brave enough to share what I write!)
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Thank you ELB. Well if Iain Banks could do it then… I suppose I ought to have asked a secondary question – if you can tell, does it destroy the credibility of the story?
And there are a few bloggers out there whose completed works I’m anxious to read so please progess yours EBL – I’m certain it would be an enjoyable adventure.
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Bless you, so sweet!
No, it did not spoil the story in the cases where it was done well!
However where it doesn’t quite work – then it seems worse somehow…
No pressure m’dear
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I read and loved ‘Geisha’ and knew it was written by a man! Go with your gut – some women DO notice the amount of flesh on view before looking at the fabric, cut etc. If you feel it is right , that’s ok – at least with me! Good luck with it !
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Thanks so much SV – loving the quality feedback from people I trust.
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I admire you taking on such a challenge — and your commitment to telling your story, however you want to tell it. I’m curious, though, why this story, this perspective?
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Hello Lynn! This is simply a cause I feel committed to. 30 million slaves in the world today? The 21st century? Plenty in Kansas too, mainly from Central America. I suppose I first became interested in a more technical way, learning about how illegal profits end up in the legitimate money system (part of my job is anti-money laundering). It’s a story I feel I need to write and I thought this way was both a challenge but also might bring home the horror and suffering in a more immediate way. Thank you for getting me back on the soapbox this morning Lynn 🙂
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When I read Memoirs of a Geisha, i didn’t know the author was male. It was recommended to me and I loved it. It’s possible to pull off writing from the POV of the opposite sex. I wish you luck! Can’t wait to hear more about your first writers’ conference. ~Gail
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Thank you Gail. Did you feel ‘cheated’ when you found out? If I stick to my guns I don’t want to cheat anyone by calling myself Royanne or something 🙂
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I was surprised but didn’t feel cheated. I vote you stick with it and see where it goes.
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Great question, Roy! For me it’s hard to say since I haven’t read anything by an abbreviated author (whose reputation and thus gender didn’t precede them) in some time. This is something I’ll have to start paying attention to so I can answer that for myself!
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Thanks Julie. I’m concluding (I think) that the very experienced editor is either very perceptive – more so than the average reader – or plain wrong. Unless you there on Venus are keeping secrets from the whole of Mars then I’m thinking there’s little author gender definition per se. Now I’ll get a chapter peer-reviewed to see if that holds in my case. Thank you for your comments 🙂
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I love wwriting conferences. They never fail to inspire me in some way.
To answer your question, I often try to guess whether the author is a man or woman if I don’t know or notice before I start reading. Or sometimes, something I read will throw me off. I’ll think I am reading the thoughts of a woman and then a line will stop me and I’ll think “that’s not how a woman thinks.” I do think there are sometimes small details that the oposite gender wouldn’t realize. For that reason, I’m not sure I’d ever attempt to write a 1st person male POV.
It can certainly be done. And I applaud you for trying. I think your storyline sounds riveting. Based on the short blurb you provided, I’d certainly pick up this book.
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Thanks for your input Juliann. The strange thing is, it never occurred to me NOT to write this in the first person. It’s a story that has to be told by multiple people, men and women, then maybe the world will take collective action.
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I do not think so , no!
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Excellent, thank you Gregory and I must have a look at your Florida website!
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Fascinating discussion. Perspective of a reader here. I think if a book is well-written, it probably doesn’t matter what gender the author is – but I do find myself thinking, ‘Why did the author think they had the right to write from that perspective?’ Though that’s not just in the context of gender. I find it hard to believe a writer really understands the psyche of the character they are writing if there is a huge gulf between the author’s life and the character’s, for example if they are writing as a mother when they don’t have children themselves, or where they imagine how someone from a different culture would respond. I’m now wondering though why I think I have the right to question an author’s right to write what they want…
For me, what makes a book ‘real’ is all to do with the characters’ inner lives, rather than the events that affect them, so the details of how their mind works is what makes it believable or not.
Curiously, I’ve only been reading on here a few minutes, and I already feel that Chameli is a real person. I’m not so sure why she couldn’t slip off to the pub or like football though. 🙂
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Hello Hedwigia and thank you for taking time out from your training 🙂 Maybe you’re correct and maybe it will be impossible to write through a young Nepalese woman. I’m never likely to visit Nepal/India or be a woman, young or old! It’s a challenge sure enough. But should one simply write about what is familiar to them? Most authors enter a world where they have to research and/or visualise unfamiliar happenings, places, people or it would all be very boring.
It will work or it won’t. I think I’ve more or less made my mind up to bash on and see if I can do it. Nothing to lose.
Thank you for your thoughtful comments and I’ll be wandering across to your blog shortly.
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